AI data centers. Semiconductor fabs. Oil and gas electrification. Desalination. Rising population. Texas is booming and it needs massive amounts of electricity to fuel that growth.
We’re already using more power than ever. ERCOT projects demand will grow by 60,000 megawatts in just five years. That would be like adding the current peak demand of California on top of Texas. But instead of clearing the path for new energy development, some would slow it down — and slow down the economy with it.
This week, I spoke with Glenn Hamer, President and CEO of the Texas Association of Business, about why that’s such a dangerous idea and what we should be doing instead.
We covered a lot: AI, nuclear, oil and gas, battery storage, export economics, and why Texas must build all forms of energy faster, not slower. But at the center of our conversation was this core truth: You can’t grow an economy if you’re starving it of power.
Glenn made the case that Texas has always led on energy of all kinds. Republican leaders including George W. Bush and Rick Perry helped launch Texas’s wind and solar boom. Now we need to keep going with an all-of-the above strategy that includes solar, wind, gas, nuclear, geothermal, and batteries all playing a role.
He also talked about the economic impact renewables have had in rural Texas, particularly in areas with no oil or gas, which now has another source of income: wind and solar leases. TAB’s study with Aurora Energy Research shows what’s at risk. Blocking new renewable projects would raise electricity prices and increase the chances of rolling outages.
And it’s not just about supply. Texas is also leaving money on the table by underinvesting in demand-side innovation. In a second TAB study, Aurora found:
$87/year in savings per household, even for non-participants in demand response
Over $400/year in savings for households that switch from resistance heating to heat pumps
Significant peak reduction potential from data centers and other large energy users
There’s a reason the oil and gas industry, manufacturers, chemical producers, and data centers are all calling for more supply and smarter policy. Texas doesn’t have a red-versus-blue energy divide, we have a build-versus-block problem.
We also talked about the growing energy demands of artificial intelligence. Glenn made a powerful point: AI is a national security issue. If we want to win the AI race, and we must, we need to power that innovation here in the U.S., and especially in Texas. There are already grids in other states telling data centers “don’t come here.” If we pass restrictive energy bills, Texas could be next.
AI data centers require massive, stable energy supplies. The only way to deliver that is through scale and speed. That means yes to an all-of-the-above energy strategy. Texas is one of the few states that can handle this level of growth. But only if we keep saying yes.
Texas became the energy capital of the world by being the best place to build. Let’s not become the place that starts saying no.
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Timestamps
00:00 – Introduction
02:45 – Start of interview: Glenn joins, overview of TAB
03:30 – Texas energy leadership: oil, gas, wind, solar, batteries
05:30 – Bipartisan legacy of renewables in Texas
07:00 – Economic benefits of renewables for rural Texas
09:00 – Energy for AI, semiconductors, and oil & gas electrification
12:00 – Gas turbine shortage, and how batteries are changing the grid
15:00 – Energy growth vs. Texas’ resistance to regulatory overreach
17:00 – AI, national security & innovation as core drivers
19:00 – Balanced advocacy: renewables, nuclear, batteries, geothermal
20:00– Data center growth in Texas & energy infrastructure
22:30– LNG exports & cost premiums for low-emission gas
26:00 – Desalination & energy, innovation & leadership
27:30 – Aurora studies on renewables and demand side management
29:30 – Demand-side innovation & response
31:30 – House Bill 14 & SMRs: nuclear development as opportunity
33:00 – Geothermal innovation & bipartisan support
34:00 – Demand-side efficiency and reducing energy waste
36:00 – Tariffs, and economic ripple effects, need to lower energy costs
37:30 – Support from industrial, tech & business groups
38:30 – National security & AI race with China
41:00 – Regulatory overreach risks & broad support for energy development
43:00 – Final thoughts: energy export & coalition building
Resources
Glenn Hamer & TAB
Reports & Studies
Aurora Energy Research – Impact of Restricting Renewables in Texas
Aurora Energy Research – Demand Flexibility and Energy Efficiency Study
Federal Reserve Energy Survey – First Quarter, 2025
Related Energy Capital Podcasts
How Load Flexibility Could Unlock Energy Abundance (Tyler Norris Pod)
New Nuclear in Texas, with Doug Robison and Dr. Rusty Towell
Related Texas Energy & Power Newsletter Articles
The Texas Senate Is a Threat to U.S. Energy Security (Senate Bill 388)
Another Anti-Energy, Anti-Growth Bill Looms (on Senate Bill 715)
Media Coverage
Other References from the Podcast
Remarks by the Vice President at the Artificial Intelligence Action Summit in Paris, France
EarthX Announces Winners of the 2025 EarthX Climate Tech Prize
Transcript
Doug Lewin (00:05.26)
Welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. I'm your host, Doug Lewin. Real treat this week, I got to talk to the president and CEO of the Texas Association of Business. That is a statewide chamber of commerce representing thousands of businesses all across the state of Texas. This was a conversation with just a lot of fun. We started all the way back with Texas Energy Legacy. And why there's really not a competition in Texas between oil and gas and renewables, how it really is an all of the above state because the economy is growing so fast. So many businesses are wanting to locate here, but we are seeing Texas become a hub for AI data centers and advanced manufacturing of all kinds. So Glenn makes a very clear case for adding energy resources, not subtracting. As you probably know, Texas Association of Business did a couple of very important studies with Aurora Energy Research. We just interviewed Olivier Beaufils for the podcast just last week from Aurora, talking about both of those studies. One of them looked at the impacts of limiting renewable development on Texas and showed we would have a higher likelihood of outages, higher costs for consumers if bills like Senate Bill 715, 819, Senate Bill 388, et cetera, if any of those bills were to pass. But Texas Association of Businesses also put an emphasis on demand side strategies and how those can help with reliability. Again, talk with that one about Olivier last week, but we got into all of that in this conversation.
One of the things I liked most about this conversation with Glenn, there was a lot to like, but one of the things I really enjoyed was the discussion around the national security implications of winning the AI race. Whether you like it or not, we are in an AI race with China and we desperately need to win it. There are not that many places in the United States where you can develop enough energy to power AI data centers, but Texas is one of those. So long as we don't choke off the energy development that can actually power AI data centers.
One final note, if you're listening to this, please also know you can watch it on our YouTube channel. We're starting to grow that channel. So we filmed this in high definition with multiple cameras. If you want to go check it out there, we'd be very grateful, but particularly be grateful if you would like the videos over there. But wherever you listen, please like and share, please leave a five star review. And this is a free episode of the Energy Capital Podcast. We do have paid only episodes for our paid subscribers. If you're already a paid subscriber, thank you, thank you, thank you. If you're not, please become one today at douglewin.com. You can access those paid episodes, but also all the archives of the Texas Energy and Power Newsletter, grid roundups, special presentations and chats, and much, much more. Thank you very much for listening. Let's dive into this episode with Glenn Hamer.
Glenn Hamer, welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. So glad we could make this happen. Been looking forward to doing this for a while. You are the CEO, President and CEO of Texas Association of Business, the statewide chamber. Tell us about TAB. And of course, this is the Energy Capital Podcast. Folks want to know about energy. Talk about Texas and energy. We're going to talk about a lot today, but let's start from a high level with Texas energy legacy and what energy means to this great state.
Glenn Hamer (02:55.148) Great to be on the show.
Glenn Hamer (03:18.808)
Well, Doug, first, I want to thank you for everything you do. You get really important information out there to lawmakers, to the public, to the business community, and it's super helpful. And if I pick up the New York Times and there's a story on Texas and energy, you're going to be in it, or CBS News, or you name it. So at the state chamber, you know, we're very proud that Texas is the energy capital of the world. Doug, we lead in oil, we lead in natural gas, but a lot of people don't know we're number one by far in wind. We're probably now number one in deployed utility scale solar photovoltaic. We're climbing up the charts quickly in terms of battery storage. There's some great things we think being planned in nuclear. We're excited about what geothermal could bring. And Doug, you know, our bottom line is because the Texas economy is performing so well and we have so many businesses and people moving here and we'll I know we'll talk about AI later and Doug I just wanted the listeners to know my comments were not prepared by grok3 or chatgpt this is all human but we know that AI is going to require a tremendous amount of more energy new energy and ERCOT would back that up so Doug where we land is all the above and below whatever we think we need in terms of energy development and also say energy efficiency plays an important role here. We need to do it. And our members feel very strongly that we need to take that message to the state Capitol and retain Texas's place as the energy capital.
Doug Lewin (04:56.918)
Yeah, and the only way we do that, is by continuing to develop all the energy sources we have. Texas is blessed with resources and, like you said, oil and gas, but it's also very windy and sunny. Why not use all of it, right?
Glenn Hamer (05:12.61)
Well, I'll get in trouble to say this and obviously I'm kidding, but when I lived in really West Texas and I'm talking Arizona, far West Texas, I'll be careful there. But when I was in Arizona for many years, Arizona played a leading role in developing solar and it was bipartisan. But the state during that period of time was basically controlled by Republican governor and Republican legislature. At Texas at that same point, you had a very similar situation. You had governor George Bush and a Republican legislature that really developed the wind resource in Texas.
Doug Lewin (05:48.322)
Governor Perry as well. It went all the way through across deck.
Glenn Hamer (05:51.378)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, so, you know, wasn't considered, there was nothing partisan about it. It was simply develop the resources that make sense in your respective state. You know, Arizona, it's always sunny. Texas, a lot of sun, but also obviously a lot of wind. And so develop those resources.
Doug Lewin (06:09.068)
Yeah. And look, there's no red electrons, blue electrons, right? We need all of this, but we do see, interestingly, you know, I know you have made a real point with Texas Association of Business, obviously the statewide chamber, to visit a lot of local chambers. You've made that a real point of emphasis during your tenure. You know, in rural Texas, the renewable energy boom has really delivered a lot of value. There's a study you guys were involved with, right? What is it? Something like $20 billion over the life of the projects that are already in the ground, mostly in rural Texas.
Glenn Hamer (06:45.694)
It has been economically a boon to rural Texas. There's no doubt about it. We're not just talking about providing necessary electrons to keep the lights on, but there's been a huge financial impact across the state and particularly in the rural parts of Texas.
Doug Lewin (07:01.016)
Yeah, I posted a video on YouTube a while ago where I took some clips out of the hearing from Senate Bill 819. And one of them that really sticks with me is gentleman from Armstrong County, Armstrong County, just southeast of Amarillo, two or 3000 population. He's like, look, we're dry land farmers. We don't have oil and gas in our district. We got a lot of wind and sun. Why would you take this from us?
Glenn Hamer (07:23.17)
Well, we need it. I mean, again, you take a look at the state's forecast and our ambitions to be the AI capital of the United States. We're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy. And the energy that's already being produced is making our state more prosperous, particularly in rural Texas. We want to see more of that prosperity. I mean, when you're a chamber, you want to see more growth. Population, technologically, advanced manufacturing, AI, you name it, Doug. And we want to take advantage of the fact that we're the energy capital of world. And there's another point I just want to make.
A big part of the Texas miracle is that this state has traditionally been about the easiest place to permit and build a business. I love when I talk about energy because everyone knows we're number one in oil and natural gas. But not everyone knows that we're number one overall in renewables. So we don't have the same number of people yet. I use yet as California, but we're producing more renewables. And why has that been the case? Because historically it's been a lot easier to permit and build energy facilities in Texas than other states. And again, we want to keep it that way. And it's a great talking point for other industries as well. I mean, I don't care what if you're manufacturing an automobile or any widget, when you're able to say that it's much easier to build and permit in Texas, it makes our state more competitive.
Doug Lewin (08:56.77)
Yeah. And look, I mean, it is AI. I always like to just point out to folks that like it's also semiconductors. It's also oil and gas itself is starting to electrify and use more and more, again, electrons. I don't think they'd necessarily really care whether they're green or brown or whatever, but like a lot of them are green. A lot of them are the wind and solar electrons and they're cheaper and they just like having access to that cheap power.
Glenn Hamer (09:20.204)
Well, those are two really important points. I mean, right now we export more semiconductors than any other state. And we're a huge semiconductor state with global wafers, Texas Instruments, Samsung and others, the birthplace. It requires a lot of juice. You know, so that's another industry where it's vitally important. And even you're talking about it's, yeah, the oil and gas industry. You think about the Permian Basin that is looking to electrify. Well, that's gonna require a lot of juice. So all of these things, in our opinion, work together. And I'm a big sports guy. This is the time you wanna add points. You don't wanna take points off the board.
Doug Lewin (10:01.038)
Well, I think even to go further with the sports analogy, I've been thinking about this lately, Glenn, the basketball playoffs are going on right now. You don't want to put five centers on the court. You don't want to put five point guards on the court. Wind, solar, gas, nuclear, they have different attributes. Wind is particularly great at helping to drive costs lower. Of course, you can't call on it when you need it. That's what you got your batteries or your gas peakers for. So just like a basketball team, you need five different guys with different skill sets complementing each other. A grid kinda needs that as well, right?
Glenn Hamer (10:32.098)
Well, absolutely. And you just even think of the investments. You want to diversify your investment portfolios. Texas is extremely lucky that for really all the major sources we're producing at top of the country levels, or we have the potential to really do a lot more. And I'm talking a lot more in battery technology. I'm talking a lot more in nuclear and a lot more in geothermal.
Doug Lewin (10:59.596)
Yeah. So another thing going on right now, I know you're, you're aware of is there is this gas turbine availability crisis, right? There's a, there's a supply chain crisis for gas turbine. So, so we're in a situation right now where Texas, because of the Texas energy fund, we are probably going to have some gas built here. It might be as much as 10,000 megawatts, but it's probably not going to be more than it might be a little bit less. Meanwhile, we have ERCOT giving us these demand projections all the way up to 150,000 megawatts, which would be 60,000 more than we use now. And that's within five years. I mean, it kind of scares me as a Texan. I would think it kind of terrifies you as the head of the chamber, the statewide chamber that like if some of these legislative proposals passed that would have the result, whatever the intention is, if the outcome is to limit the amount of energy supply that comes online, that then becomes a real just choke point for the Texas economy.
Glenn Hamer (11:57.806)
Right? I'm confident, and it's a little bit dangerous to do this before June 2nd, when the dust settles, we will still be a state where we will be encouraging all sorts of different energy resources and possibly, I would say, very likely juicing, so to speak, some different sources, including nuclear. But when you take a look at what ERCOT is forecasting, we absolutely need all of this new energy. And I think one of the things we need to do a better job in Chamberville is explaining what's going on. And part of what's going on is the battery storage issue is extremely exciting. And I'm talking about companies like Base Power. I'm talking about some of the things that are going on with Tesla.
By the way, Texas companies too. And those certainly aren't the only ones, but what's going on in batteries is a game changer. And the fact that the grid is becoming more sophisticated and more resilient in terms of being able to handle and benefit resources that are more intermittent. So I think that there sometimes is a little bit of a lag in terms of just because some of these advances I think have been pretty sudden. They're really exciting. And in terms of, you know, Texas's pole position and energy production, really good for us and absolutely a prerequisite for us to be the AI capital of the United States. We need this energy. And Doug, that's why a lot of our tech members pay a lot of attention and want us at the Texas Association of Business to be very engaged to make sure that our energy policy is about all the above and below, is about addition and that we're very careful about any sort of proposals that could slow down the tremendous amount of energy we're going to need to economically function.
Doug Lewin (13:59.47)
Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, you mentioned permitting earlier, right? There's some deregulatory things happening at the Capitol trying to make it easier. You mentioned base. There's a bill that would make it easier. I know you've been supportive of this bill, make it easier for folks to get storage at their homes and businesses. You also mentioned, I just want to double click on this point just a little bit around batteries and how quick it's happened. The governor in his state of the state address right at the beginning of session said over the last four years, we have 35% more supply. That's a huge growth. That's over 40,000 megawatts. Of that 40,000, 10,000 is battery storage. The most dispatchable resource, I mean, like literally millisecond kind of response time. So this is a great story, but then at the same time we have these proposals. Senate Bill 819 is one of those. You got Senate Bill 715, Senate Bill 388. All of these would in different ways add all sorts of additional regulatory burden to energy developers that are trying to bring that resource to bear. So can you just talk a little bit about, I mean, it's almost like our dissonance, right? Because you have the legislature on the one hand, like trying to stand up a nuclear industry, helping geothermal, removing regulatory barriers for distributed batteries. And then on the other hand, you have these proposals that are just, at least in my view, just very heavy handed, that kind of big government approaches that don't really seem to fit with the Texas ethos, at least in my view.
Glenn Hamer (15:25.688)
Well, you know, whether it's energy or other areas, we almost always, if not always prefer the light regulatory touch. I mean, that is clearly part of the Texas miracle. Low tax environment, low regulatory regimes, as well as just ease of permitting so you can build stuff. Now we have spent, I mean, on my...
Doug Lewin (15:38.254)
Part of the recipe, right? It's the absolute formula.
Glenn Hamer (15:51.106)
...going to divulge private conversations. But we have been making the rounds, talking to legislators that have sponsored or support these bills to explain where we're coming from and to also explain the awesome amount of new energy that is needed to power our economy. I mean, you take a look at, for example, how fast China is able to build certain things. I would argue, Doug, for national security, we have to, and I mean, Texas has to get energy policy right. And sometimes, look, I'm not saying everything that I say or do is 100% consistent. I always try to make sure it's consistent, but we're trying to respectfully point out that to achieve, you know, I think the greatest address in the history of vice presidents in our country's history was delivered by JD Vance on artificial intelligence in Paris.
Doug Lewin (16:46.254)
This was the Paris...
Glenn Hamer (16:48.556)
And the reason why Doug, he focused on three things, acceleration, innovation, and energy supplies.
Doug Lewin (16:55.69)
...acceleration and innovation and adding energy.
Glenn Hamer (16:58.794)
Yeah. All three of those are the recipe for Texas to lead in that area. And so if we're stopping energy generation that will contribute to a more stable, a more resilient, a more affordable energy to homeowners and to businesses, we are going to respectfully say that's not the direction we want to go down. Now, I understand the issues. I mean, I used to in a past life, and Doug, anyone could Google my background. I've worked for conservative members of Congress, so like former US Senator John Kyle and Arizona Congressman Matt Salmon. Also ran the Solar Energy Industries Association. At a period of time where I joked, but I was sort of serious, I was more likely to see a UFO landing in Phoenix than a photovoltaic panel on a building. That's changed. And with that change, there have been some issues that are fair to be raised in terms of intermittency with solar and wind. The point we're making is that look at what's changed. You have batteries coming up, you have a more sophisticated grid, you have grid operators saying that this is good. I mean, I think, you know, we have very good leadership in my opinion at ERCOT. And it's very important to listen to what the experts are saying there. And as far as I can tell, our advocacy agenda is consistent with what the state needs to meet our dramatically increased energy needs in a very short period of time.
Doug Lewin (18:30.41) Y
eah, no, I mean, everything you're saying is consistent with what Pablo Vegas has been saying. The ERCOT CEO, he was in Houston Chronicle, Austin Statesman, Dallas Morning News at ERCOT Innovation Summit, of all things, just a week ago, talking about how we really do need every megawatt that we can possibly get. And of course, he'd be the first to tell you, there's challenges with intermittency. Nobody would deny it's challenging. Because it's challenging doesn't mean you just choke it out, right? Like that means you meet the challenge.
Glenn Hamer (18:58.454)
Yeah, because as you mentioned, there's challenges with every resource, every generating resource. It's not like I'm going to put up as much as I'd love to put up a small modular nuclear reactor at the chamber. It's not, you know, snap your fingers and it happens. So there's challenges with every energy resource. But what we try to do is just soberly say, okay, this is where things stand. And if we pursue these policies and we'll always listen, you know, there's, we want the grid to run effectively. And I also understand that sometimes there could be conservation issues, all can be addressed. We can balance all of those issues out. And we'd like to see to maintain and increase our supremacy and renewables. I'd love to see the state be number one in batteries. And Doug, I would love for us to lead in small modular reactors. I think that that's an area that the state is moving down the right road very quickly. My colleague and friend Reed Clay I think is doing a great job on nuclear advocacy. You know we really...
Doug Lewin (20:03.266)
He's the leader of the Texas Nuclear Alliance, right? Exactly. You need to get him on the podcast. Reed if you're listening.
Glenn Hamer (20:06.476)
He's a good guy.
Glenn Hamer (20:08.333)
Yeah, we'll read.
Doug Lewin (20:11.116)
I did add Doug Robinson and Rusty Towell from Abilene Christian and the tour resources talking about small modular. I've got another small modular one coming up. I think, so like this is really, I think kind of the rub here, Glenn, right? It's like we have some policies floating around that would really hurt some kinds of generation. And I don't want to attribute bad motives there. I think people are freaked out. Winter Storm Uri got people freaked out. There's a lot of fear out there, but I think when people act out of fear, they might end up enacting policies that have unintended consequences and really hurt the economy are positive things we could do. Right? Nuclear would be one of those, but there's a long list, right?
Glenn Hamer (20:51.054)
Well, absolutely. And I don't question the motive. I've met with a number of the members on these different bills. They're sincere in their beliefs. And again, we'll see in a few weeks really how it all plays out. I do think that the conversations and the coalition that's been building is helping to land this in the right place, meaning that we continue to be a state where we can more effectively and easier than any other state deploy energy resources. That is a big selling point if we're zooming out a little bit, when you take a look at all these data centers and AI. So there's been three, $500 billion announcements in the last six or seven months. So say during the first part of the Trump presidency that have involved data centers and AI. I think the first one was Stargate with OpenAI and Oracle, Abilene. I think the second one was in...
Doug Lewin (21:43.831)
...in Abilene.
Glenn Hamer (21:48.854)
...announcement with a big new manufacturing plant, think through Foxconn perhaps in the Houston area. The last one was connected to NVIDIA and maybe that's also Foxconn. I may be messing up some of the companies, but what do all three of those projects have in common? A couple of things. One is Texas is the center of a lot of the activity. And two, they all require a tremendous amount of energy.
Doug Lewin (22:16.524)
Yeah. And it's going to be a mix. It's going to be a mix. There will be gas that some of these data centers bring with them. We will have gas developed in the state, and they're going to want solar and wind and storage. It's going to be a mix.
Glenn Hamer (22:29.25) And I'll just say, I'm getting, I'm no Daniel Yergin, I wanna be careful here. But to me, the more...
Doug Lewin (22:34.574)
No one is Daniel Yergin. No one except for Daniel Yergin. No, not even close.
Glenn Hamer (22:37.026) Well, you're, you're, you're in his league. And well, when you think about the more we're doing wind, solar, battery, geothermal, the more opportunities we also have to export LNG. When you talk about the president wants to balance trade, one of the best goods we can trade is our natural gas, is LNG. So to me, this all really works together and plays into a strong United States economy and a strong Texas economy.
Doug Lewin (23:11.566)
Yeah, this is one of the things that is most fascinating to me about some of these bills, the 715 and 388 as examples where the authors mean it, I think, as a way to buttress the oil and gas industry, but the oil and gas industry itself doesn't want these bills. They don't like them because they actually see a higher value in exporting the gas. They get a higher price when they're selling it overseas than if they're burning it in power plants here in Texas.
Glenn Hamer (23:37.038)
Well, I think that those are the economics. Energy companies, they want to have the most profitable course. And absolutely, you know, these exports, there is a premium there. And to me, it's such a big win-win because it's also to me a big win, environmentally speaking. I mean, we're exporting our LNG. A lot of times it's displacing stuff that would...
Doug Lewin (23:59.318)
...coal...
Glenn Hamer (24:06.808)
Texas LNG.
Doug Lewin (24:08.28)
One of the most fascinating things about that too, because a lot of the overseas buyers, whatever anybody thinks about it here, whether they like it or not, a lot of the overseas buyers want lower emission gas. So if you are actually powering your fracking operations with renewables, and then you can tell the Japanese, the Koreans, whoever you're selling it to, like, hey, this is low emission gas, now you're actually able to charge even a higher premium. Like this is why I sometimes, Glenn, want to hit my head against the wall. Some of these, what I just think are wrongheaded attacks against renewables, because people think they're doing it for the oil and gas industry. They're not actually helping the oil and gas industry with it at all.
Glenn Hamer (24:44.098)
Well, Doug, one of our top energy issues is to achieve Class 6 primacy from the EPA. Has that not happened yet? It's in process. So Administrator Reagan actually came out. We had a meeting with him. It was one of the top issues that I personally brought up with him. Nuclear being another, and I did of course say we're an all the above and below state. I mean, we just want to make it as easy to produce electrons. But the point there is carbon capture and sequestration obviously is to produce a lower carbon product for the reasons that you've said, a lot of the customers overseas, that is an important factor. It could be a deciding factor. So again, for all these pieces to work together, and Doug, this is also important, so I appreciate you bringing this up. Texas, of course, we're number one in terms of exporting. 23 straight years. We export twice as much stuff as California. So when we're getting energy policy right and the things that we've been talking about at TAB, we're running up the score for Texas being the country's top export state. So we're going to do that unapologetically and proudly.
Doug Lewin (25:51.968)
And by the way, all of these things, liquefaction of natural gas, carbon capture, even some things we haven't talked about, desalinating water, which is probably going to be increasingly important in our state, also take a lot of energy, right? Like a lot of energy for all of those things.
Glenn Hamer (26:06.574)
Well, that's a great point. I mean, we're going to have something pass and Senator Perry has been a great leader on this to have allocated dollars for water augmentation, new water. Desalination is absolutely going to be a part of that. And you're right. Put desalination in the data center category in the sense of it's going to require a lot of energy. So again, everything that we're talking about here, the common thread, more people, more industries that are energy intensive. We need more juice and we need it now.
Doug Lewin (26:39.382)
And... let's meet those challenges of intermittency and of integrating renewables with innovation. Because Texas, I would argue, and I know you agree with this, it's not just energy state, it's an energy innovation state. So a lot of the things you were talking about earlier with batteries and base power, like store it up when you got a lot of it, deploy it when you don't have a lot of it. Like we can solve these problems with innovation. We're Texas, damn.
Glenn Hamer (27:00.29)
Well...
I mean, and you look at, you know, fracking was innovation. Innovation and energy is very important for the states and the national economy. But Doug, you're absolutely right. And we're blessed in this state with a terrific university system. You take a look at what's going on, UT Austin and Texas A&M and our other great universities. There's a lot of brain power that's being put into energy innovation. So let's take advantage of it.
Doug Lewin (27:25.454)
So I would be remiss if I didn't mention you guys put a couple of studies out there from Aurora, just recently put out a podcast with Olivier Beaufils where we talked through a lot of those slides. So people can check that out. We won't get into the great sort of gritty detail because Olivier and I have already done that. But on the restricting renewables one, what it finds, and I think again, where a lot of people come into this is like, hey, if we restrict renewables, we're automatically to get more gas, we'll have more reliable grid. A, there's the gas supply problem. We've talked about the turbine supply problem we've talked about. But B, when you start restricting renewable development and you also get retirements, you actually then increase the likelihood of rolling outages. The study you all put out there showed that. Happy for you to talk about that. I also want to talk also though about the study you guys did on demand side management, because this is an area, Glenn, that I think particularly with energy innovation. We are not yet a leader on the demand side. We're just not, just like objectively, it doesn't matter. There's a lot of down scorecards out there and none of them are we even in the top 10. This is an area where I would love for the legislature, for conservatives, liberals, moderates, whatever your way of thinking is, like think creatively about how to get the demand side more active. Is this something you're thinking about?
Glenn Hamer (28:40.674)
Well, absolutely. I'm going to touch that point and I just can't recall the company, but it's Waco based, I believe it's a Texas company. So I just was a judge at an EarthX event. Cool. And on the innovation, it's very interesting. I was invited as a judge. So was CS Freeland who runs the Texas Venture Alliance. So it was an innovation, which I chair, you're in that group. So it was innovation focused and it was a Texas company. It was actually a national or international competition. And this is a company I'm going to put you in touch with because it was very interesting. It was a demand side response company to more effectively and efficiently use renewable energy for the grid. They won. It helped that two out of the four judges perhaps were from Texas, but it was unanimous. There was no funny business. But so the demand side, I think is really super important. But when you talk about the other study, what we found, and I know you went into the details...
Doug Lewin (29:22.495)
Okay.
Glenn Hamer (29:36.746)
It was an energy reliability thing. Like literally, we don't want to have a situation where Texans during hot or cold times are going to have a tough time getting the energy they need to live. And the other piece of that was the cost. Renewables bring down the cost for homeowners, small businesses, and businesses. So, it's a reliability, it's a stability. And, you know, I also think it's sort of interesting that even on I'm not invested in Bitcoin or anything like that. But some of the Bitcoin mining stuff also presents an opportunity in terms of being able to quickly flip a switch and to provide extra electrons when it's most needed. You have some different things working in the right direction. Again, our point is let's make sure we're taking advantage and we're not doing anything that might have some unintended consequences that we would regret as a state.
Doug Lewin (30:32.834)
Yeah, no, I think that's super, super well said. A lot of potential on the demand side for innovation. Let's talk about a couple other areas of innovation. A couple times you've mentioned nuclear. I know you guys have supported House Bill 14. Do want to talk a little bit about that? And not just SMRs. Again, I've done a podcast on SMRs. You can talk about it all you want, of course. But I think what is really interesting about House Bill 14 and what came out of the Advanced Nuclear Working Group that Governor Abbott appointed and Commissioner Gladfelty so ably led, was this focus on building up an industry for it here. And this is again, where I just like, man, I wish people at the Capitol could spend less time punching down at renewables, because there is so much right there for us for the taking in Texas. And this is one of those areas, isn't it?
Glenn Hamer (31:16.844)
Well, it's an area that some state is going to take advantage. It's very clear. I mean, does a day go by where you don't read, you know, Three Mile Island's going to be reopened or, you know, it's every major tech company supports the development of SMRs. So, Doug, that's exactly right. That's where our energy, so to speak, should be put. Let's advance solar, renewables, batteries, SMRs, small modular reactors, geothermal. Let's do all those things. And ideally we do all these things right. We also, yeah, we do want to see more natural gas, but right now it's not as simple as snapping your fingers and those come up. And then we've talked about the export opportunities. But yeah, when you talk about SMRs, that to me is the type of thing that we should be focused on as a state. And it would be tens of billions of dollars of economic development over a period of years, not to mention to have great clean energy for the next 40, 50, 60, 70 years.
Doug Lewin (32:18.35)
And we've got a bunch of these nuclear startups located in Texas. I've already interviewed one. I'm going to interview more over the summer. I'm really looking forward to that. We could be not only powering our economy with that base load, clean firm power, but then exporting that all over the place too. It's pretty exciting. And you really start to see kind of the outlines of what the grid's going to look like. You've got these sort of clean firm sources like nuclear. I want to ask you about geothermal in a second. You got renewables that you're using to power industry and power up the batteries when you have an abundance of it. And then you've got gas peekers and batteries filling in those gaps. It's complicated for sure, but it's also like, it's not rocket science. Like the formula is there for us.
Glenn Hamer (33:03.756)
Well, and when you mentioned geothermal, that is one of the areas. You know, the federal administration has been, you know, more positive, it's fair to say, on certain sources than others, you know, to where they've been pretty darn positive, nuclear and geothermal. And geothermal, it seems that there's quite a bit that can be developed here in Texas. And that's part of our energy background makes us a natural leader. I listen to a pretty interesting podcast. I'm a pretty religious listener of the All In podcast. And the energy dominance, I can't recall exactly what they call it, but Doug Burgum was on. And he was talking about geothermal and nuclear.
Doug Lewin (33:44.364)
Secretary of Interior, right? Secretary of Interior. Head of the Energy Dominance Council, yeah.
Glenn Hamer (33:48.79)
Yeah. And he has a record as a governor of developing all sorts of different resources.
Doug Lewin (33:53.614)
North Dakota, right? So it's another kind of oil, a lot of oil.
Glenn Hamer (33:56.334)
Production there. But I think also pretty windy. And he was connecting dots to AI and the... it's a good one. Okay. I'm not going to say that you would love everything.
Doug Lewin (33:58.83)
Absolutely, they have a ton of wind absolutely.
Doug Lewin (34:04.022)
Ooh I need to listen to this one.
Doug Lewin (34:09.485)
Everything that he says, that's fair.
Glenn Hamer (34:21.409)
We're excited about geothermal as well, Doug. And again, I think if you're a Texan, you want to lead in all these different areas. It is in our DNA to be number one.
Doug Lewin (34:31.853)
Yeah, especially when it comes to energy. I'll just say, as far as like, you know, I gave a sports analogy earlier of like all these different resources working together as a team. One place where I think sports doesn't work well for this, I think what happens a lot of times, particularly at the Capitol, is people think, I'm wearing this jersey, somebody else is wearing it. I mean, that's of course what you get with like Republicans and Democrats, but on the energy side, like it should not be that way. And geothermal is one of those great examples because the oil and gas industry itself, Chris Wright, the Secretary of Energy, has invested in Fervo, a Houston-based company that is headed by a former oil and gas person using drilling technology, right? I mean, it effectively is all of the innovation that came from the shale revolution, helping us get to clean, firm power. If we can stop viewing the world as like renewables versus oil and gas and start to see how it all works together, we'll be so much.
Glenn Hamer (35:25.056)
Well, I love how you framed it. We're all on the same team. We all have a role. And if you look at all these different energy sources, it's the more the merrier. And again, it's a great thing that we're now at a point in time with, particularly what's going on with storage and batteries, that it makes it much easier for the whole team to play well together and contribute. And I'm glad you also mentioned the demand side, because I think that there's a lot that could be done there. And, you know, I think I remember a year or so ago where it got super hot and there was strong recommendations to businesses and homeowners, you know, lower the thermostat. That's positive. I mean, we should, everyone likes paying less and, we should do everything on the demand response side that we can do as well. In fact, in the olden days when I was running the Solar Energy Industries Association and I'd work with the Energy Efficiency Group, the point was, you have a solar panel, but you're leaving your refrigerator open. You're not accomplishing what you want. So all these different.
Doug Lewin (36:29.838)
Energy waste is never a good thing, right? You want to use whatever energy you're producing most product...
Glenn Hamer (36:34.606)
And Doug, for companies, that's so important as well. That's good for their bottom lines. And I'll also just say not to get too deep in the weeds on the tariff side, but some costs could and probably almost certainly will increase because of what's going on there. So it just, to me, makes it even more important to get our energy policy right on the state level to make it as easy and as cheap as possible while doing it safely to continue our drive towards energy abundance.
Doug Lewin (37:05.496)
Totally. And I think that's why you've seen so many folks like the manufacturers and industrial consumers and oil and gas association, chemical council, tech association of business, right? Like because you are in a situation where costs in different areas are going up, we've had inflation for several years. Now you've got tariffs on top of that. You look at like just the oil and gas producers, the cost of drilling a new well according to the federal reserve and the survey they do of energy executives, oil and gas executives, is somewhere in the low 60s, right? And the price right now is in the high 50s as costs of drilling are going up because of tariffs. If you start raising the cost of electricity too, that's just another layer on top of it that makes it harder for Texas oil and gas to be profitable. Again, this is just where we've got to see this more holistically and not see it as oil and gas versus... Right? It's time to get out of that.
Glenn Hamer (37:55.638)
Yeah, as I'll just say, at the Texas Association of Business, we look at all these different resources as complementing each other in some way and useful towards our goal of remaining the highest performing economy in the country.
Doug Lewin (38:15.136)
And before I want to ask you if there's anything else I should have asked you that I didn't, but before I do that, I just want to, we talked about this briefly, but I think it is just so critically important. I just want to go a little bit deeper on it, is the whole national security implications of AI. Again, you touched on it, but we are in a race. I don't know how much people understand this. I only barely understand it, but I understand it enough to know there's a race going on. And it is critical that we have AI data centers here in the United States of America. And there are only certain places around the country you can really do that. You have grids all over the country just telling AI data centers flat, do not come here. We cannot take you on our grid. I don't want to see that happen in Texas. And I'm really worried if some of these proposals pass, that is what's going to happen.
Glenn Hamer (39:05.838)
That is a real legitimate concern and you're right that it's not everywhere in the country in the United States where this is feasible. Virginia is one area that's a leader. Texas is another. And I do believe that the race for AI supremacy is for all the marbles. This is far more transformational than even the internet. And to me, it's critical that Texas paves the way. And that means getting the policy rights that we're not over-regulating and we're allowing for innovation. And I'm just going to quickly say the model was, and I'm going to give them tremendous credit, was President Bill Clinton got that with the internet. And you will hear US Senator Ted Cruz talk about the US got that right, Europe screwed it up, and take a look at the size of our economy compared to Europe's since that one decision by President Clinton. And if you want to give, you know, let's be bipartisan, Republican Congress made a huge difference. That same approach overall, in my opinion, from this administration, on getting the regulatory side right on AI, which I believe they have, if we get the energy side right, and we encourage all energy sources, the US will retain AI supremacy, and the 21st century will be ours. But if we get any of those levers wrong, there's incredible risk to our economic and national security.
Doug Lewin (40:35.818)
I completely agree. And I would say also on that sort of like getting the regulatory right. When I interviewed Rick Perry for this podcast, that was one of the things he said about his 14 years as governor that really he looked at as defining Texas's growth during that period. Yes, there's low taxes. There's also that lighter regulatory touch. It doesn't mean no regulation. When I talk about where energy system people call deregulation, it's restructuring, it's still highly regulated to protect the public. And sometimes we have to dial up that regulation, sometimes we dial it down. But I think there's a real danger right now, particularly because of some of the animus towards renewables, that there's this overreaction to overregulate, which really cuts against a quarter century of Republican leadership in Texas. And to your point, Bill Clinton, what really is kind of like Jimmy Carter deregulated the airlines, there's been kind of a broad bipartisan consensus in the country that we don't want to overregulate in a way that chokes out innovation. And I am really worried with some of the stuff I see under the dome that like there's kind of a movement away from that that is, I don't know, a little terrifying.
Glenn Hamer (41:42.924)
There's also a growing coalition to make the case that it's all the above and below. I mean, I think you see a lot of economic development groups and chambers and different business groups say, we are the energy capital. We need to develop all of these resources and we don't want roadblocks being put up that would endanger the need for additional energy.
Doug Lewin (42:06.542) I
appreciate you saying that. And I think actually, like, it is important to note that like out of 181 over there, there probably still is a very large majority that still favors that. Some of the louder ones don't, but I still think there's probably a pretty durable bipartisan consensus that like, who wants to strangle the life out of the economy? Nobody's for that.
Glenn Hamer (42:25.262)
And Doug, and I like how you frame certain things like the nuclear opportunities, huge economic development, some of the things going on in batteries with some of these great companies in Texas, huge economic development. It's not just energy, but it's developing these resources that you can export, whether it's around the country or around the globe. Texas is poised to lead. You know, there's some policies that I enjoy talking about a lot more are those such as the ones we were sort of talking about on nuclear that advance. Yeah. Don't enjoy talking as much about defense, but getting back to sports, look, the fact is there's offense and defense. We'll just continue to make the case and do everything we can to build a coalition of groups and companies that see the world our way.
Doug Lewin (43:17.24)
Glenn, appreciate everything you're doing. Always enjoy talking with you. We covered a lot of ground. I kept you longer than I said I would. And I know you're very busy, but I want to give you the opportunity to do anything I didn't ask you wish I would have, anything else you want to share with the audience.
Glenn Hamer (43:29.848)
Well, without getting into too many details, I'm pretty excited about what happened with the NBA draft.
Doug Lewin (43:36.206)
Ha
Glenn Hamer (43:38.626)
Texas is going to have three really strong NBA clubs next year.
Doug Lewin (43:42.798)
All right, there you go. You heard it here first. So when we're talking about the team that is all the energy resources, and we talk about the basketball analogy, the actual basketball in Texas is also heading, trending in the right direction. So love to see it.
Glenn Hamer (43:56.28)
Thank you Doug. This was fun.
Doug Lewin (43:57.863)
Really appreciate you taking the time.
Doug Lewin (44:01.56)
Thank you for listening to the Energy Capital Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you did, please like, rate, and review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until next time, have a great day.
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